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Post by Skeptical One on Mar 4, 2011 12:32:17 GMT -5
Allofme2, while I appreciate your suggestions, I'm curious to know how often you have checked in with this site over the last few months.
I object to the assertion that this forum hinders rather than educates. It is a free flow of information about all procedures, good and bad. While I try to do my best to filter out shills, it's an extremely difficult task and requires vigilance from both myself and the Moderators.
I can't control who wishes to post about whatever kind of experience here. I know of a few members who have stated their poor experiences with Dr. Elist, and I would recommend to them to restate their stories (and pictures) here for the benefit of the community. Likewise, those who have had better than average success are encouraged to post as well. I believe this assortment of data helps build a bigger picture as to why there is success and failure with a given technique. I believe that there are sufficient info and events (confirmed shill activity) on this forum to make anyone think twice before undergoing the Elist procedure. I would not be opposed to creating a thread that specifically discusses potential complications of the implant.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by a "separate gallery." Are you referring to the "Patient Support Group & Progress Reports" forum? It isn't designed for JUST success stories. Bonehead's thread isn't a success story. It's a forum to post your progress report, good or bad. I can't control the ratio of good or bad, that's up to our fellow members.
Mark isn't a shill, if that is what you are implying. And if he were a shill, he would be a horrible one. He has repeatedly acknowledged his inability to recommend the implant in good faith. I believe his 80% assertion was innocent, yet reckless speculation, and I think we have to keep that in perspective. And as for that "invisible user," he isn't a shill either if that's what you are implying. I know who the user is, the invisible feature is just for added privacy.
I believe the Elist climate on these forum(s) has created a sense of paranoia, bitterness, and mistrust. Rest assured that the Admin/Moderators are doing everything they can to keep this place open and informative. Balance, however, is at the mercy of our members. You would think Dr. C was my brother given the size of the PMMA thread, but I can't control the imbalance created by what appears to be member demand. This is true for both negative and positive Elist stories. I just can't forcibly balance it on my own without somehow imposing censorship. It is up to our users to add to the content. This is a message board.
As for this forum "being another propaganda tool," well this makes me feel as if you log in to this place once a month at best. This forum has gone through a lot of growing pains to remain credible, and I'm sorry if you see fair, open discourse as propaganda. Personally, I'm proud that this forum has the openness for Mark, Ck, and Stale to post their progress threads while still being the same forum that busts Elist shills.
I hope I understood you correctly, and I hope you have my understanding.
-S.O.
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Post by marknmau on Mar 4, 2011 13:13:43 GMT -5
Markmnau - your defensiveness and name calling is revealing. Who posed the fact that the elist plant has a 80% success - where is the evidence of the specific number. I never made a statement about specifics but it is based on a straw poll. What's yours based On?- sucked out of your thumb. I am delighted your implant worked out but that does not negate the fact that the implant is plastic and creates in the flaccid state a hard unnatural feel with edges - been there done it hated it. It is the price you are prepared to pay - I don't believe most given this information would have it. That is what this forum is about -information. Your statement of 80% success rate is misinformation. Ok allofme, I give up, soon your so-called "straw poll" will be at 100% Isimply come on this site occasionally to state the facts about what happened to me. And when the other gentleman started the thread trying to get an account of possible positive outcomes I started wondering myself so looked back at all the records I could find from what seemed like truthful accounts and through PM's I've had with various guys and then I simply made a guess! and I stated that it was simply a guess, and I gave an at length reason why I thought the numbers just might be higher than some on here might think because of the fact that who knows how many men get this done and never get on any such forums as this. do you get it? I at no time gave a "statement" that the success rate is anything. I feel hesitant to even put a numeral in this post as you will no doubt jump all in my shit about "stating" percentages. Your straw pole is about as accurate as me pulling a number out of my so-called thumb. The thing that I have the biggest problem with is being belittled in a public forum by being told that I may as well just use a dildo with this plastic cock that I have. Anyway, I'm taking my wife's advice. She ask's why even bother going on this forum ( I totally gave up on the MNS crap site because of the censoring of information) thats all I've ever wanted to do is get the truthfull information out there. So anyway I won't be coming on here anymore.... I don't need it. I know what the truth is is my case. and I'm sick of being considered sticking up for Elist and that I may be helping him in anyway. like I said your straw poll will soon show 100% there you go!
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Post by idm on Mar 4, 2011 16:08:56 GMT -5
Allofme2:
First, let me reiterate, that we are all, (or at least should be) part of the same team...most of us (especially me) have a long history expressing concern/ potential dangers of the Elist implant. NONE, my friend, have been more critical of Elist's method of operation than I...NONE.
Not sure how long you've been around but I was banned from posting at the other site because of my less than subtle commentaries; but I felt there was SO much BS/shill activity that circumstances warranted it. I took the chance, blew up the site and that led to the establishment of this site thanks to "Skeptical".
I disagree w/you in that I do not believe Mr Elist would accept an invitation here, b/c he will be made to answer questions and be held accountable. The admin of this site is not on his payroll, as is the case elsewhere.
Finally, In response to your question, re: the value of marks input (personally), I found his account to be straight forward, generous (posting photos) and balanced. He expressed how the implant was beneficial for him/his wife and always clearly acknowledged the negative truths that exist as well as the fact that he was "LUCKY". By virtue of this testimony it helped establish the legitimacy for the concerns I expressed for men considering this procedure. As a vocal critic of this implant and Elist himself, I believe Marks account has underscored, (whether intentionally or unintentionally) the very significant risks associated w/this method as well as helped establish the fact that Elist clearly minimizes the potential for serious complication.
Its important to choose our language wisely and communicate respectfully.
Idm
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dog
New Member
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Post by dog on Mar 4, 2011 18:14:18 GMT -5
Hi Mark:
To be fair, I think that your opinion is as valid as anyone's here, especially since you have had the implant.
Athough my experience with the implant was not positive, I know others who have it and are satisfied. But I don't agree with an 80% success rate. I was there from early on with the implant and know of only a VERY few people (at least online) that kept it in as is. I did NOT like that fact that I was misled by the DR. with statistics that did not add up. Just keep that in mind when seeing him again for any reason and I'll leave it at that.
Anyway.. Good luck.
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Post by allofme2 on Mar 4, 2011 18:47:58 GMT -5
Guys please lets keep this all in perspective - this is the sort of forum that is healthy if it allows us to express forcefully our views. IDM, please read over every single word I have said - it is always factual if that makes it disrespectful on occasion then I apologise. I don't believe it is. Bearing in mind the title of my thread it is very important that anyone placing unverifiable information is prepared for a challenge - otherwise why do it.
My issue with Mark is this - I don't believe he is a shill because I have followed his contribution for 7 or 8 months now over on MNS and over here but he is aware of the grave dangers this implant poses as he himself expressed concern about the longterm consequence of it over at MNS. When you know that you have been lucky in the short term but where many have suffered great misfortune and that indeed you have a potential time bomb then to continue to treat the subject lightly does distort the scenario for people who are undecided because it provides comfort and is a form of promotion whatever and however good the intentions are. Mark took my remark of plastic cock and dildo against himself. It is a general statement about the implant and my personal experience - I had the so-called softer version - and I still consider it as hard as plastic with rough edges. And still wander - generally - why if knowing this one doesn't just use a dildo and save oneself a potential huge health hazard. Perfectly reasonable statement as anyone who has had the implant will confirm.
IDM - you state that you are against the implant but have you had it? If you knew the side effects and mental pain this causes when it goes wrong I believe would make you more anti - I don't have stats but as I mentioned previously the damage is such that in the normal course of events it should be banned because of the potential for going wrong.
Here's my point I would rather forwarn some innocent against a potential lifetime of disability than worry about someone's hurt feelings. After all hurt feeling repair after a few hours. Butchery is for keeps.
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Post by Skeptical One on Mar 4, 2011 19:02:27 GMT -5
allofme2I respect your sense of duty to warn others about the dangers of the implant. You mentioned you "had," the softer implant (assuming you no longer have it ? ). Would you care to chime in on your experiences? And for the benefit of all future members and prospective patients, you should consider creating a new thread detailing your accounts with the procedure so we can continue to learn about all the potential risks involved with the implant (and anything else you may have endured).
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Post by allofme2 on Mar 4, 2011 19:19:54 GMT -5
OS - I am pointing out how easy a shill could hijack this site - messageman actually made this point to a shill about how a clever shill should operate. As there is no verification process with regards to images, it would be easy to manipulate a positive response. This is what I would do if I were a shill. Post before and after photos while peppering my remarks with a mix of negative and positive statements. For instance 'the edges are bit rough in the flaccid form but disappear in the erect state.' Now we think here is someone with a balanced view but the reality is based on that we know a picture is worth a thousand words which means any negative statements will be overridden by the positive images. Any marketing person will tell you this.
I understand you are grappling with a huge subject without reward and I give this illustration why I believe the forum should be run as a single (with the exception of the resource threads) unit ie without the Feedback pages etc. The PMMA shows this brilliantly. It is about the moment, everything is in context. We can freely express our resevations and ask questions as we are receiving feedback. When a person submits photos of their wonderful success similarly those in the know can pose questions. If the heat gets too much as we have seen with many shills they disappear, if the person can satisfactrily explain themselves - then indeed that is a story we should stick around and listen too even if we do not agree with it.
The problem with a site like this is that once people have been damaged they tend to go off and lick their wounds - for them any advice is too late and so we never have the benefit of their stories. Recent cases I can mention is Yardstick and Soldier77. This creates a natural distortion because while this is also true of many successful cases some of these will be more inclined to hang around. I agree there is not much you can do about it but it is something to consider. People like myself who remain vigilant when wrong information is placed however intended does provide a measure of cover. And, yes, I am on here everyday.
Thank you all for making my thread interesting.
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Post by allofme2 on Mar 4, 2011 19:36:43 GMT -5
SO - as mentioned earlier in this thread I had the softer version and also had it removed. It is ghastly and more to the point, as everyone that has had it removed knows, one suffers terrible retraction which means one is far worse off than where one started. Hardly why you would want to throw huge amounts of money at this deceptive merchant of make-belief.
In due course I will detail my nightmare journey. Thanks for your input.
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Post by hoddle10 on Mar 4, 2011 19:43:46 GMT -5
@ allofme, the clever shill you are describing is exactly what Chad used to to over at MNS. This is why I was and am still unsure if someone like Newgirth is actually a genuine shill. I suggested he could be the opposite. It crossed my mind that Newgirth could be the invention of someone who had an axe to grind with Dr Elist and therefore wanted to be outed as a shill in order to make Elist look bad for using shills. He was just so obvious, whilst the real shills created by Chad at MNS were much harder to spot.
Chads shills rarely had a totally smooth ride and would often comment on some thigs they don't like about the implant. But ultimately they'd always be happy they did it and most crucially mention how much their wife or FG enjoyed the sex. Chad was clever like that, in that he knew the key was to make sure it seemed like the "poster" wasn't pushing the implant, but at the same time saying the exact things that would cause guys to ignore any potential negatives and take the risk. He knew just how important it was to mention how much women liked it, as by nature, most guys considering PE surgery and fairly egotistical and the thought of being a stud in bed due to having a big cock would be too much to resist. Therefore he could even go as far as saying that a "poster" had a "rough recovery, which included an infection and many stressful sleepless nights etc, but thankfully he's over it now. Having gone through what he has, he couldn't straight out recommend the surgery, but just say it was worth it for him, as he's now got the dick he always wanted to and can make women cum so much easier." So even though the poster has gone as far to say he had an infection and couldn't endorse the surgery, it still has done the trick, as most will ignore that and focus on the bit about it making him a stud in bed. It seems like a totally genuine story and would be played out over many weeks, so they rarely seemed like obvious shill stories.
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Post by Skeptical One on Mar 4, 2011 19:46:47 GMT -5
OS - I am pointing out how easy a shill could hijack this site - messageman actually made this point to a shill about how a clever shill should operate. As there is no verification process with regards to images, it would be easy to manipulate a positive response. This is what I would do if I were a shill. Post before and after photos while peppering my remarks with a mix of negative and positive statements. For instance 'the edges are bit rough in the flaccid form but disappear in the erect state.' Now we think here is someone with a balanced view but the reality is based on that we know a picture is worth a thousand words which means any negative statements will be overridden by the positive images. Any marketing person will tell you this. I understand you are grappling with a huge subject without reward and I give this illustration why I believe the forum should be run as a single (with the exception of the resource threads) unit ie without the Feedback pages etc. The PMMA shows this brilliantly. It is about the moment, everything is in context. We can freely express our resevations and ask questions as we are receiving feedback. When a person submits photos of their wonderful success similarly those in the know can pose questions. If the heat gets too much as we have seen with many shills they disappear, if the person can satisfactrily explain themselves - then indeed that is a story we should stick around and listen too even if we do not agree with it. The problem with a site like this is that once people have been damaged they tend to go off and lick their wounds - for them any advice is too late and so we never have the benefit of their stories. Recent cases I can mention is Yardstick and Soldier77. This creates a natural distortion because while this is also true of many successful cases some of these will be more inclined to hang around. I agree there is not much you can do about it but it is something to consider. People like myself who remain vigilant when wrong information is placed however intended does provide a measure of cover. And, yes, I am on here everyday. Thank you all for making my thread interesting. A shill could easily show up anywhere, but a shill will never hijack this site. That's a bit of a stretch. I'm very keen on what to look for in potential shills and will continue to remain vigilant. As we all know, it is hard proving someone is a shill, especially if they provide sufficient information and post within forum guidelines. Unless they sound gimmicky, break forum rules, or are proven fraudulent, my attempt at silencing them will only come off as censorship. I don't believe there is much more I can do at the moment to somehow mitigate the threat of shill activity in this forum's current state. But rest assured whenever there are question marks, the forum as a whole is usually on top of it. As for the forum's structure, I appreciate your suggestions. For organizational purposes, I don't feel that any changes need to be made at this time. I believe the bulk of the conversation resides in a single unit known as the General Phalloplasty Discussion forum. The 2nd forum (Patient Support Group & Progress Reports) was created so that members could follow the progress of individual members with ease (and not have to scroll through pages of the main forum to find it). The Feedback Forum is meant to be member-to-Admin feedback. And the Resource-Only are self explanatory. You mentioned "the problem with a site like this is that once people have been damaged they tend to go off and lick their wounds..." - but wouldn't this be the problem with any PE site? I'm not sure exactly why this is the PhalloBoard's problem? You also mentioned having the implant, do you mind sharing a bit of your experience(s)? Thanks, S.O.
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Post by Skeptical One on Mar 4, 2011 19:47:27 GMT -5
Oh sorry, didn't catch the recent post on your implant, disregard that question.
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Post by Skeptical One on Mar 4, 2011 19:50:51 GMT -5
@hoddle
Whether newgirth was with Elist or not, we do know he was NOT LEGIT.
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Post by hoddle10 on Mar 4, 2011 19:56:55 GMT -5
@hoddle Whether newgirth was with Elist or not, we do know he was NOT LEGIT. To be honest, he almost certainly was a shill, I just don't think he has anything to do with Chad. I'm so used to looking out for and campaigning against Chad's behaviour over the years, that when a shill comes along, that is so obvious, like Newgirth, I wasn't sure what to make of it. But I don't think Chad and Elist are still working together and haven't for a while. I think the only reason Elist was still being protected on MNS was because he was a witness in Chads legal action against Krakovsky. So now Chad isn't working with him, I expect the quality of shilling for Dr Elist has dropped dramatically, hence we end up with the likes of Newgirth.
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Post by Skeptical One on Mar 4, 2011 20:05:14 GMT -5
@hoddle
That is what I expected too. If it isn't Chad, then you are probably dealing with lower-grade shill quality lol! Hence the cheesy sales pitch.
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Post by messageman on Mar 5, 2011 8:18:57 GMT -5
Wow…a lot has gone on since I last checked on the site. First, I wish to say that I am absolutely sure Marknmau is not a shill, and I feel it would be a real shame if he were not to return to the site. The people who continue to contribute to this site after their procedure is finished and have good results do so for basically selfless reasons…and are a valuable resource for info. Even though I am obviously Anti implant, I am not for censorship…And even though I would be the first to jump on an obvious shill, I feel it’s very important we don’t scare away legitimate cases, resulting in the unfortunate victimization of good people and limiting the flow of information. It is fundamental as a website that we don’t have any agendas (hidden or otherwise) or risk resembling we fought against at MNS. When I first had my implant (I had it for a total of 4.5 months), I was the poster boy for the implant. I had few complications (relatively) and sex was great. Sure I could feel the edges when flaccid, but for a guy who was neurotically obsessed about penis size his entire adult life, this was a small price to pay. I would post on MNS and rave about it because I felt very pro implant at that time. Other members on the site would berate me calling me a ‘shill’ and questioning my honesty and integrity. I took it all very personally and just basically left the site. Shills are an inherent pest on our site and we should do our utmost to expose them; in fact, most of them do a good job at exposing themselves (Newgirth, lawman, etc)..; I think the trick is to not to let them destroy the cohesion we have as a fraternity of guys who have experienced or may experience surgical penis enlargement. Sure some of them will trickle through but nothing is perfect. We just have to accept that and be on our guard… The beauty about this site is the free flow of information (with no agenda)…whether you personally agree with it or not. Allofme2. I am here for you brother. I know what you’re going through and admire your eagerness to make sure others don’t suffer the way (we have). Marknmau, I really hope hope you rteconsider and continue to be a presence on the site.
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